VicPol Digital

[A Thompson]

Hi everyone,

I lashed out & purchased a Uniden Digital Scanner.

I can get the Ambos & MFB which is good.

Now the guy I bought it off thought there was software/program around to
unencrypted the police
transmission.

Has anyone heard same, & if there is where can it be found & I'm assuming
(assumption being the mother of all F*#K ups) it
would have to be run via a PC if it was correct information.

Thanks

[brian w edginton]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:19:55 +1100, "A Thompson"

Post by A Thompson
Hi everyone,
I lashed out & purchased a Uniden Digital Scanner.
I can get the Ambos & MFB which is good.
Now the guy I bought it off thought there was software/program around to
unencrypted the police
transmission.
Has anyone heard same, & if there is where can it be found & I'm assuming
(assumption being the mother of all F*#K ups) it
would have to be run via a PC if it was correct information.
Thanks

You can buy it from ASIO or the CIA for $500,000 .....if you pass the
security test.

-------------------------------------

If you want to stand out in the crowd...
check the alleys for escape routes, first

[rob]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:26:30 GMT, brian w edginton

Post by brian w edginton
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:19:55 +1100, "A Thompson"

Post by A Thompson
Hi everyone,
I lashed out & purchased a Uniden Digital Scanner.
I can get the Ambos & MFB which is good.
Now the guy I bought it off thought there was software/program around to
unencrypted the police
transmission.
Has anyone heard same, & if there is where can it be found & I'm assuming
(assumption being the mother of all F*#K ups) it
would have to be run via a PC if it was correct information.
Thanks

You can buy it from ASIO or the CIA for $500,000 .....if you pass the
security test.

Would anyone trust those bastards ?

[brian w edginton]

Post by rob

Post by brian w edginton
You can buy it from ASIO or the CIA for $500,000 .....if you pass the
security test.

Would anyone trust those bastards ?

With my life!
With my country.

Of course, though, I don't get a choice.

------------------------

If you want to stand out in the crowd...
check the alleys for escape routes, first

[rob]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:19:55 +1100, "A Thompson"

Post by A Thompson
Hi everyone,
I lashed out & purchased a Uniden Digital Scanner.
I can get the Ambos & MFB which is good.
Now the guy I bought it off thought there was software/program around to
unencrypted the police
transmission.

You've got to be joking.

Anyone that tells you that is an ignorant moron.

Post by A Thompson
Has anyone heard same, & if there is where can it be found & I'm assuming
(assumption being the mother of all F*#K ups) it
would have to be run via a PC if it was correct information.
Thanks

No chance in hell

[JimK]

Post by brian w edginton
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:19:55 +1100, "A Thompson"

Post by A Thompson
Hi everyone,
I lashed out & purchased a Uniden Digital Scanner.
I can get the Ambos & MFB which is good.
Now the guy I bought it off thought there was software/program around to
unencrypted the police
transmission.

You've got to be joking.
Anyone that tells you that is an ignorant moron.

Post by A Thompson
Has anyone heard same, & if there is where can it be found & I'm assuming
(assumption being the mother of all F*#K ups) it
would have to be run via a PC if it was correct information.
Thanks

No chance in hell

Very narrow minded.
I remember when GRN started in NSW in 1992, "No chance in hell" was the
comments made from scanner heads. NSW Police use a 35 year old system of
encryption, it is already breakable by people with lots of money.

[Kev]

Post by JimK

Post by brian w edginton
On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:19:55 +1100, "A Thompson"

Post by A Thompson
Hi everyone,
I lashed out & purchased a Uniden Digital Scanner.
I can get the Ambos & MFB which is good.
Now the guy I bought it off thought there was software/program around to
unencrypted the police
transmission.

You've got to be joking.
Anyone that tells you that is an ignorant moron.

Post by A Thompson
Has anyone heard same, & if there is where can it be found & I'm assuming
(assumption being the mother of all F*#K ups) it
would have to be run via a PC if it was correct information.
Thanks

No chance in hell

Very narrow minded.
I remember when GRN started in NSW in 1992, "No chance in hell" was the
comments made from scanner heads. NSW Police use a 35 year old system of
encryption, it is already breakable by people with lots of money.

Well you get back to us when it is decrypted in real time won't you
the GRN was nothing but a trunking system
completely different to digital encryption

35 years you say
and there is still no real time decoder, what does that tell you

and the Victorian Police are using a digital trunking system with
encryption which as far as I know is not APCO25 digital or an upgraded
version



to the OP
you were either duped by someone who knew better or
you were told something by someone who doesn't have a clue and listened
to others who also don't have a clue

no Police for you in Melbourne, try the VHF freqs for the country areas
and you may have some luck


Kev

[Alfred]

Post by JimK
Very narrow minded.
I remember when GRN started in NSW in 1992, "No chance in hell" was the
comments made from scanner heads. NSW Police use a 35 year old system of
encryption, it is already breakable by people with lots of money.

It's not narrow minded - it's reality. You can't compare decoding a trunking
system to decoding APCO encryption, they are completely different beasts!

If an encryption key was to be broken (lets say by somebody using a
supercomputer and specific software over a number of months or years) then
they would still not be able to listen in. You may have the 'key' so to
speak, but you can't just type it into a scanner or a radio and hope to
listen. In simple terms the key needs to be programmed to the radio using a
keyloader and the ID of the radio needs to be accepted by the system - Joe
Public does not have the equipment to do this, and even with the equipment
the radio will not be accepted by the system.

Furthermore, encryption keys are changed on a regular basis - so even if you
were able to obtain the key and program it into the radio it would have
already changed several times since - so it would be completely useless.

Those that knew anything about trunking systems when they first came out
knew they would be scannable someday - it was a relatively simple case of
determining how the system worked and programming a scanner to do the same.
The same is not possible with APCO encryption.

To say APCO is 'already breakable by people with lots of money' is not
correct. The method of encryption may be able to be broken by those with
lots (and lost) of time and money, but there is still no way (and never will
be) of using this method to listen into an encrypted APCO transmission in
real time.

[jonz]

Post by Alfred

Post by JimK
Very narrow minded.
I remember when GRN started in NSW in 1992, "No chance in hell" was the
comments made from scanner heads. NSW Police use a 35 year old system of
encryption, it is already breakable by people with lots of money.

It's not narrow minded - it's reality. You can't compare decoding a trunking
system to decoding APCO encryption, they are completely different beasts!
If an encryption key was to be broken (lets say by somebody using a
supercomputer and specific software over a number of months or years) then
they would still not be able to listen in. You may have the 'key' so to
speak, but you can't just type it into a scanner or a radio and hope to
listen. In simple terms the key needs to be programmed to the radio using a
keyloader and the ID of the radio needs to be accepted by the system - Joe
Public does not have the equipment to do this, and even with the equipment
the radio will not be accepted by the system.
Furthermore, encryption keys are changed on a regular basis - so even if you
were able to obtain the key and program it into the radio it would have
already changed several times since - so it would be completely useless.
Those that knew anything about trunking systems when they first came out
knew they would be scannable someday - it was a relatively simple case of
determining how the system worked and programming a scanner to do the same.
The same is not possible with APCO encryption.
To say APCO is 'already breakable by people with lots of money' is not
correct. The method of encryption may be able to be broken by those with
lots (and lost) of time and money, but there is still no way (and never will
be) of using this method to listen into an encrypted APCO transmission in
real time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hmmm, as they say..."never say never".......

[gcd]

The NSA can - if they can't decode it - you can't sell it - simple as that.
so it can be done but you need to know things that are not available to the
public.
Any encryption system is under control of itar (if US originated, and was on
the USML) - cannot be exported unless there is state dept approval and this
hinges on whether the nsa are happy to have the technology go offshore. in
order for that to happen it needs to be a recoverable encryption scheme if
greater than 56 bits or non recoverable for less than 56 bits. Apco being
up to 256 bit would then have to be a recoverable scheme.

There is also discussion that you do not necessarily need the full code to
decode audio. This is certainly true for spread spectrum type of encoding -
and I would assume is also applicable to apco. The idea is that you dot
need the full code to re-create understandable voice - the brain will help
fill in missing bits and pieces.

Greg

Post by Alfred

Post by JimK
Very narrow minded.
I remember when GRN started in NSW in 1992, "No chance in hell" was the
comments made from scanner heads. NSW Police use a 35 year old system of
encryption, it is already breakable by people with lots of money.

It's not narrow minded - it's reality. You can't compare decoding a
trunking system to decoding APCO encryption, they are completely different
beasts!
If an encryption key was to be broken (lets say by somebody using a
supercomputer and specific software over a number of months or years) then
they would still not be able to listen in. You may have the 'key' so to
speak, but you can't just type it into a scanner or a radio and hope to
listen. In simple terms the key needs to be programmed to the radio using
a keyloader and the ID of the radio needs to be accepted by the system -
Joe Public does not have the equipment to do this, and even with the
equipment the radio will not be accepted by the system.
Furthermore, encryption keys are changed on a regular basis - so even if
you were able to obtain the key and program it into the radio it would
have already changed several times since - so it would be completely
useless.
Those that knew anything about trunking systems when they first came out
knew they would be scannable someday - it was a relatively simple case of
determining how the system worked and programming a scanner to do the
same. The same is not possible with APCO encryption.
To say APCO is 'already breakable by people with lots of money' is not
correct. The method of encryption may be able to be broken by those with
lots (and lost) of time and money, but there is still no way (and never
will be) of using this method to listen into an encrypted APCO
transmission in real time.

[Mike Alpha]

Post by gcd
The NSA can - if they can't decode it - you can't sell it - simple as
that. so it can be done but you need to know things that are not available
to the public.
Any encryption system is under control of itar (if US originated, and was
on the USML) - cannot be exported unless there is state dept approval and
this hinges on whether the nsa are happy to have the technology go
offshore. in order for that to happen it needs to be a recoverable
encryption scheme if greater than 56 bits or non recoverable for less than
56 bits. Apco being up to 256 bit would then have to be a recoverable
scheme.
There is also discussion that you do not necessarily need the full code to
decode audio. This is certainly true for spread spectrum type of
encoding - and I would assume is also applicable to apco. The idea is
that you dot need the full code to re-create understandable voice - the
brain will help fill in missing bits and pieces.

No. APCO25 uses the DES cipher which requires a key to decode the encrypted
data. Without the exact key, even if only one character is out, the audio
will not be decoded in any way. DES encryption would not be used for such
high security applications if it could be "half decoded".

Mike

[gcd]

I recommend you talk to some military ew people or perhaps someone at dio.

Post by Mike Alpha

Post by gcd
The NSA can - if they can't decode it - you can't sell it - simple as
that. so it can be done but you need to know things that are not
available to the public.
Any encryption system is under control of itar (if US originated, and was
on the USML) - cannot be exported unless there is state dept approval and
this hinges on whether the nsa are happy to have the technology go
offshore. in order for that to happen it needs to be a recoverable
encryption scheme if greater than 56 bits or non recoverable for less
than 56 bits. Apco being up to 256 bit would then have to be a
recoverable scheme.
There is also discussion that you do not necessarily need the full code
to decode audio. This is certainly true for spread spectrum type of
encoding - and I would assume is also applicable to apco. The idea is
that you dot need the full code to re-create understandable voice - the
brain will help fill in missing bits and pieces.

No. APCO25 uses the DES cipher which requires a key to decode the
encrypted data. Without the exact key, even if only one character is out,
the audio will not be decoded in any way. DES encryption would not be used
for such high security applications if it could be "half decoded".
Mike

[Bass Junkie]

Post by Alfred

Post by JimK
Very narrow minded.
I remember when GRN started in NSW in 1992, "No chance in hell" was the
comments made from scanner heads. NSW Police use a 35 year old system of
encryption, it is already breakable by people with lots of money.

It's not narrow minded - it's reality. You can't compare decoding a trunking
system to decoding APCO encryption, they are completely different beasts!
If an encryption key was to be broken (lets say by somebody using a
supercomputer and specific software over a number of months or years) then
they would still not be able to listen in. You may have the 'key' so to
speak, but you can't just type it into a scanner or a radio and hope to
listen. In simple terms the key needs to be programmed to the radio using a
keyloader and the ID of the radio needs to be accepted by the system - Joe
Public does not have the equipment to do this, and even with the equipment
the radio will not be accepted by the system.
Furthermore, encryption keys are changed on a regular basis - so even if you
were able to obtain the key and program it into the radio it would have
already changed several times since - so it would be completely useless.
Those that knew anything about trunking systems when they first came out
knew they would be scannable someday - it was a relatively simple case of
determining how the system worked and programming a scanner to do the same.
The same is not possible with APCO encryption.
To say APCO is 'already breakable by people with lots of money' is not
correct. The method of encryption may be able to be broken by those with
lots (and lost) of time and money, but there is still no way (and never will
be) of using this method to listen into an encrypted APCO transmission in
real time.

It's simply a matter of brute force. Take Moore's law into account and
it is almost certain that we will have portable devices able to break
the encryption. They may not be legal, but that does not detract from
its credibility.

[JoHnB]

"Bass Junkie" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7320d426-0e69-4ea4-b997-
::::It's simply a matter of brute force. Take Moore's law into account and
::::it is almost certain that we will have portable devices able to break
::::the encryption. They may not be legal, but that does not detract from
::::its credibility.

It is legal in Australia, Whilst breaking old Motorola keys may be 'easy'
to someone in the know. (Someone here claims the government agencies can do
it within 24 hours, I dont know how true that is) it is illegal to do so in
the USA, and most other nations.

It would cost millions for a company like Uniden or Radio Shack or whoever
to R&D, then produce a radio for the market, but why would they when they
cant sell it in most countries.

[Dan]

Post by JoHnB
(Someone here claims the government agencies can do
it within 24 hours, I dont know how true that is)

It's bull plop, people watch allot of movies these days and like to
believe everything they see on TV is true.

[Dan]

Post by A Thompson
Hi everyone,
I lashed out & purchased a Uniden Digital Scanner.
I can get the Ambos & MFB which is good.
Now the guy I bought it off thought there was software/program around to
unencrypted the police
transmission.
Has anyone heard same, & if there is where can it be found & I'm assuming
(assumption being the mother of all F*#K ups) it
would have to be run via a PC if it was correct information.
Thanks

There are plenty of applications that would allow you to decrypt police
comms, you just need an encryption key to do so.

[brian w edginton]

Post by Dan

Post by A Thompson
Has anyone heard same, & if there is where can it be found & I'm assuming
(assumption being the mother of all F*#K ups) it
would have to be run via a PC if it was correct information.
Thanks

There are plenty of applications that would allow you to decrypt police
comms, you just need an encryption key to do so.

True!

Late!
But, true.

----------------------------------

If you want to stand out in the crowd...
check the alleys for escape routes, first

[m***@hotmail.com]

Post by brian w edginton

Post by Dan

Post by A Thompson
Has anyone heard same, & if there is where can it be found & I'm assuming
(assumption being the mother of all F*#K ups) it
would have to be run via a PC if it was correct information.
Thanks

There are plenty of applications that would allow you to decrypt police
comms, you just need an encryption key to do so.

True!
Late!
But, true.
----------------------------------
If you want to stand out in the crowd...
check the alleys for escape routes, first

In trying to determine the future, you should study the past.
Lets look at the history shall we?
DVP. 30 years old. Secure?
From the NSA: no.
From the DSD: no.
From some computer nerd with a surplus CRAY-2 in his basement: perhaps
not. Brute forcing it is only half his problem, he'd need to know
about the coding & formatting of the signal (ie how the bits are
transmitted on air, how to sync up with the frames, and frame
formatting, extracting the voice frames from error checking, and then
there's the voice-coding & compression to figure out...)
From you and I with domestic budgets of less than $5000 - yes! And
will continue to be so for perhaps another 5-10 years... by which time
no-one will be using DVP anyway because of its obsolecence.

Plus I've never seen an 'application' downloadable on the 'net for a
PC that will purport to 'decode' DVP or P25 encryption even if you had
a key to give it. Well, nothing that wasn't a virus.

So with this bit of history under our belts, lets try to predict the
future.
OK, so the P25 trunking bit has been worked out, that helps - but it
doesn't get us any closer than if we were listening to a simplex
transmission of P25.
The codec used, called IMBE, made by DVSI is well known. Your 396T
even has a IMBE codec inside! Wonderful, we have figured out the
voice codec, and can even figure out the digital bits of P25 since
it's a open standard.
Now for the encryption - the 'only' thing keeping the communications
secure.
Now it's been reported that the 56 bit DES has been broken, by people
with super computers or a very large network of computers. Great!
We're on our way.
But the problem is that you need to invest lots of time, money and
effort to brute force the key. Often the investment in time & money
is too great for us hobbyists. I sure don't have 5 years to devote,
nor 10 PCs to dedicate to the task. And if the target user decides to
change the key once every few months... we're SOOL. Even with Moore's
Law - regular changing of the key will ensure that the encryption will
remain secure from hobbyists & criminals until DES on P25 is obsolete
too.

Actually, in the USA, on a scanning website, someone who has a DES
encrypted radio made a high quality recording of him speaking a
phrase. He challenged everyone to decode it - he even used a known
weak key from memory - and offered some expensive bit of radio gear in
his shack as incentive to the first successful decoder. No-one has
yet claimed the prize!

And if in 20 years I'm wrong, you can come back to me and say "ner
ner, told you so" - I won't be offended, I promise.

[JimK]

Post by brian w edginton

Post by Dan

Post by A Thompson
Has anyone heard same, & if there is where can it be found & I'm assuming
(assumption being the mother of all F*#K ups) it
would have to be run via a PC if it was correct information.
Thanks

There are plenty of applications that would allow you to decrypt police
comms, you just need an encryption key to do so.

True!
Late!
But, true.
----------------------------------
If you want to stand out in the crowd...
check the alleys for escape routes, first
DVP. 30 years old. Secure?
From the NSA: no.
From the DSD: no.

What us the source of this information?
I have not seen any concrete evidence that anyone has broken any key.